WILLIAM S. SADLER, JR.
23 July 1960
OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA
Part 10 of 11
Transcribed by Kristen Maaherra
Scanned by Christel Schmidt
Formatted by David KantorPart 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11
Webmaster's note: These transcripts are presented here in unedited form. There are some discontinuities at points where the tape was broken and times when Bill turned off the recorder while he talked. These transcripts have not been closely edited for typos or scanning artifacts. If you are interested in improving the presentation of this material, please contact sysop@urantia-book.org
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
They're from the core.
Audience: They're one in the same, aren't they? In time-
Exactly.
Audience: You and Grandfanda?
Exactly. Because it's like our--you remember when we figured what happens if we drop out these smaller dimensions? We're dealing with less than 1 %. We're just a trifle over 1%.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Definitely old universes.
Audience: Old universes, yes.
They're from the inner universes.
Audience: Pretty (can't understand tape) too.
Yes. They may even get us confused with natives of the first outer space level.
Audience: Laughter.
In fact, some time when we really get out there, they'll just say, this is a group of Master Universe citizens.
Audience: They're all the same (can't understand tape).
Yes. Quartan space level, superuniverses, Paradise citizens, they're all roughly contemporary. They've been around a long time.
Audience: It's like saying we're all Americans (can't understand tape).
Audience: Would you say (can't understand tape).
You get the same feeling when a New Yorker and an Atlantian meet in Paris. There's no feeling of sectional difference now. They're both from the United States, see? They have a feeling of being neighbors, you know? In Paris. In this country, they're a long ways apart. Pardon me, Berk?
Audience: I just want to ask if you thought the inner six corps of finality are equally important?
Yes, I do. Yes, I do.
Audience: What was this again?
The other six finaliter corps are of equal importance. I do. They'll do things in a different way. They're different beings.
Audience: Do you think the Havona natives would rather be finaliters or (can't understand tape).
Audience: Laughter.
I think it depends on the Havona native. I think--
Audience: Boy, that's pure speculation.
I think their choices are unpredictable. They're people. They're personalities.
Audience: Well, (can't understand tape) on a waiting list, is the reason I asked.
Yes.
Audience: They're personalities. They have a choice.
People get a yen for different things. And Havona natives are personalities.
Audience: (Can't understand tape) .
They get intrigued with something. This appeals to them. But I don't want to be a musician. I want to be a physicist, see? Or vice versa. What makes us this way? We're differently attracted to different pursuits. And of course that makes life interesting.
Audience: They tell us that anything that we have desired to do on this world that we didn't get to do, we will get to do on the mansion worlds.
Yes.
Audience: Well, Tommy (can't understand tape) always wanted to be a great architect, you know. That was always his ambition.
Yes.
Audience: And he looks forward to that very much. That's encouraging.
Well, I'm sure of this. If Tom's got the aptitude, he'll be a great architect. If he hasn't got the aptitude, they'll tell him so, but they'll still let him try. And they'll let him try until Tom himself is satisfied that he'd rather be a first-class something else than a second-class architect. I'm positive they're not arbitrary. They counsel us, and if we want to do something that isn't the best, but not harmful, they let us find out for ourselves. Satisfy ourselves.
Audience: Well, he said the same thing about teaching in Sweden, if he had the opportunity and chance. He said he didn't know whether he would be a good teacher. I said the only way you'd find out is to try it.
Sure.
Audience: And see. But you shouldn't take away from yourself the thought and the inspiration that you might be.
That's right.
Audience: In the thought of helpfulness to other people. And I think that is true in what you said. He might have some thought entirely that is entirely wrong, but he must try it.
Break in tape.
And it's in this sense that we become literally the children of the Supreme, so that, in outer space, we can make the same portraiture of the Supreme Being which Jesus as a man made of God the Father. When he was here on earth.
Audience: Wow.
It will be just as natural for us. We will be "part and parcel" of the Supreme.
Audience: Bill, you said how big will we be-
Yes.
Audience: When we become finaliters. Is it your idea that we will eventually, along the way, assume the outline of a physical being as we are now?
Well, first of all, let's consider what a midwayer looks like. Wilma, can you--let's have a little imagination. Take a human being, and now let's dissolve away all the fat and muscular tissue. I want to keep the brain and the nervous system. Here is where a human being really lives. In the brain and nervous system.
And a midwayer is a human being minus anything mammalian. So when I try to think of what a secondary midwayer looks like, I think of the equivalent of a brain and nervous system expressed in living electrical pattern. It's alive, so the pattern holds its shape. It resists change, just like an organism resists change. You cut it, and it mends, see? You push this pattern out of shape, and it goes back in shape again, because it's a living pattern.
Wilma, that's as far as I can go. I can go to a secondary midwayer, because this is a physical reality--just as physical as I am. But not cellular. Electricity is physically real.
Audience: Yes.
And now, I've already got to something which looks so alien and non-human, I can't take the next step and try and visualize a primary midwayer.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Audience: Yes, but Bill.
Who's spiritual.
Audience: Now, this nervous system you're talking about, (can't understand tape) of the midwayer, because he's so different than it is for us, because the nervous system has to appear through this body, and carry this physical body.
Oh, granted, granted.
Audience: The midwayer doesn't have that physical body to carry.
Granted. It would be a different configuration. But it would be the same thing in principle, I think.
Audience: It could be tied up in a eeny teeny tiny winy..
Possibly, possibly.
Audience: (Can't understand tape) or something.
Yes.
Audience: Couldn't it?
Now, a finaliter, I think, has a physical--pardon me--a spirit form. Definite form. And if you had the sensory mechanism, you'd perceive the finaliter. I mean just as much as we perceive each other. You'd say, "that's a finali--why, that's Joe." He's not just a finaliter. You know him, see? This is Joe, how are you, Joe? This is Joe the finaliter.
Audience: Well, will we be able to perceive each other?
Certainly.
Audience: But that's personality, isn't it?
And we'll look a lot prettier up there than we do down here.
Audience: I didn't know that.
Audience: Laughter. (Everyone talking at once). (Can't understand tape).
Audience: Well, I wanted to correct one thing, here, before we move any farther. I said the "magnitude of man," I felt a chill around here, I meant the magnitude of the spiritual value of people.
Sure.
Audience: I was speaking of all people.
That's what I'm trying to get to. I can't conceive of what a finaliter's like, much less what a finaliter's going to be like, at the end of the evolution of the Master Universe. But he's going to grow through every one of these ages and through every one of these space levels--and this gets to be a pretty tremendous creature. Because the experience he's amassed. Look at the skills he's acquired.
Audience: You know, we're going to be terribly disappointed if Jesus doesn't look like a man when we see him.
Audience: Laughter. (Everyone talking at once).
Audience: Bill, I'm awfully glad you brought up here this brain and nervous system, because I think that a lot of people are wondering a lot what it's going to be like. I think that brings it down--
Well, now wait a minute. That's not what we're going to be like.
Audience: No, no, no.
On the first mansion world.
Audience: But I mean you're breaking it down, you're taking as an example of what we--
Of something alien. I think on the first mansion worlds, we'll look fairly much like we look down here, because when Jesus was in morontia form and was visualized to people, while they didn't always recognize him immediately, they recognized him very quickly. Mary Magdalene didn't recognize Jesus until he spoke her name. Then she knew it was Jesus. So did the gardener to begin with. He broke the bread sitting with the two brothers at Emmaus, and then they knew who he was.
When he was standing on the shore, they thought he was a fish merchant come down to buy the early catch, until they got closer in. But he didn't look alien.
Audience: But we're told that we'll be so material on the first mansion world that we can break a leg--
Sure.
Audience: So we must be going to look similar to what we do now.
Oh, yes. Again, Wilma, the fact they tell us the non-breathers--
Audience: Our morontia body must--
Speak by a modified technique. They're still not breathers up there. You know there's an atmosphere. Because if you suddenly made breathers out of them it would be traumatic to them. They're non-breathers, and they wake them up as non-breathers. Now, eventually, I think, those distinctions tend to disappear.
Audience: To disappear.
Yes.
Audience: As we go closer and closer in.
Audience: Called (can't understand tape) isn't it?
Yes.
Audience: But Jesus still had the form of a man on his last appearance. On (can't understand tape).
I think we still have fairly human forms up on Jerusem. That's not strange. The Material Sons live up there.
Audience: It's very possible that we'll still have human forms when we're finaliters.
I don't think so.
Audience: They'll be very ethereal.
I don't think so. I think they'll be very beautiful, but very different from anything that's entered our minds.
Audience: Look at Bert. Laughter.
Audience: Well, many things in discussion on a spiritual world are recognizing their loved ones, of course.
Sure.
Audience: And of course it comes about by the growth of us after many a loved one has gone and so forth and so on.
Yes.
Audience: And the aging process. But you're speaking about a recognition through the spirit itself.
Oh yes. We'll know. We'll know.
Audience: Sure you'll know.
Here. I recognized a chap on a train. I can't tell you how I did it, but we last saw each other when we were 7 or 8 years of age. We were in our early 40's then. Both of us. We passed each other. I can still remember. I had my hand out to open the door of the pullman ahead. I turned around and he was standing there with his hand on the doorknob. We were both looking at each other; and we grinned foolish. And one of us says, "Do I know you?" And the other one says, "I don't know, who are you?" Why, that's Billy Harshy. He lived across the alley from me. We shook hands. I can't tell you what clued the two of us to look at each other. Because, good Lord between 7 years and 40-odd, you don't look the same.
Audience: What would be the difference in that and comes down to spirit of thinking, what would be the difference in that--and you're answering so many questions here today that I've been thinking about for so much of my life--
Because we're both human beings, and we ask the same questions.
Audience: Well, (can't understand tape). These are things that I want to know.
Audience: You've been perfect.
Audience: The modified technique, the (can't understand tape). (Everyone talking at once). Didn't recognize it for what it was.
Possibly. I just say "kindred minds. "
Audience: Wilma, I've decided. You will look like a cardinal bird. Aren't they beautiful? Cardinals?
Audience: Laughter.
Audience: I reckon (can't understand tape). (Everyone talking at once).
I think this. As we go on, we'll gradually change. We'll all be changing together. And we'll eventually look like something quite different from people. But each change will be so small, and we'll recognize each change for an improvement--we're better off. We have better equipment. Less fatigue, maybe. Better perception. We suddenly open up a whole new range of things that register on us. And I think this is going to be so natural and so normal--
End of Tape.
Tape 4
That we will--it will just be growth.
Audience: But you know, Bill, the sad part of it is, that we probably won't catch up with you until you're way out there in outer space, and one day some of us will pass you, and say, "Don't I know you?"
No.
Audience: No.
You know what will happen, Wilma? I'll go fine, until we get somewhere where you have to have mechanical aptitude.
Audience: Laughter.
And then, you folks will arrive, and you'll say, "Who's that fellow who's botching up that repair job on that piece of equipment? He's been here for 3 million years, and he can't seem to get it in his head." And one by one, you'll all pass me.
Audience: Laughter. (Everyone talking at once). I'll be all right on math. Oh, math kills me. (Can't understand tape).
I think this. As you look ahead--well, here. I'll tell you my criterion. When God personalizes a Thought Adjuster, I think he suddenly liberates that Thought Adjuster to function at a level which we will attain someday in the most remote future. Because that Thought Adjuster doesn't need to go through the evolutionary experience. And yet, that Thought Adjuster carries all the human values garnered from all the indwelling experiences he's had.
Take Jesus' Adjuster. And don't you know, they gave him one of the best? One of the most experienced. This is a humanized divinity. Because all of the human nature is there in that Thought Adjuster imparting to that Adjuster the salty taste of evolutionary humanity.
Audience: Well, that certainly is a relief to me, because there's so many things that I feel as though it seems impossible to hurdle.
I think they'll come very easily. No, not easily.
Audience: I don't care if it comes easily, just that it comes.
It'll be a real challenge, but you'll have the stuff to take it.
Audience: I'm looking forward to--
There's one thing I believe. They will never give us an assignment we can't handle. Except for educational reasons. They might let us bump our nose for the good of our egos. But always good will come out of any assignment they give us. If they give me an assignment, I'm going to assume that I've got the stuff to take it.
But I think the assignments grow as we grow. It wouldn't be fair otherwise, would it? I mean, what fun would it be in high school to get a third grade assignment?
Audience: You wouldn't do it.
You want a high school assignment.
Audience: You wouldn't do it.
No. It wouldn't be fair to your performance.
Audience: Why should I be canceled out if I don't understand?
You won't.
Audience: (Can't understand tape) cancel people out.
No. I said, you can assume you won't fail. This is not 100% true. Sometimes you fail to find the Father. Sometimes the Son. Sometimes the Spirit. This is not a failure in the true sense of the word. This is a delay indicating a need. And what do they do? They meet the need. They assign you to the superuniverse which has the maximum corrective education. And then you come back, and they tell us, there is never a failure a second time. Now, it's foolproof.
It's not quite foolproof the first time. But it's always foolproof the second time. So that I expect some failures. And, you know something? If no one ever failed, it wouldn't be a true adventure, would it?
Audience: No. That's right.
But we'll go into Paradise to try to recognize the three persons of deity, one at a time, and we'll have that tremendous stimulus, "It's possible to miss." And yet, that stimulus will be free of fear. They don't cancel me out if I miss. I get more education if I miss. But you'll never be cocky as you might be if no one missed. I can see a great value to the occasional failures there.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
I think maybe we need that stimulus to make the last hurdles.
Audience: Well, what would we do if we didn't have the stimulant of a challenge? We'd accomplish nothing.
What happens when you take the last hurdle? When we're sitting on the last two circuits in Havona, what do they observe? They observe that we kind of wish that we could go back and start it all over again. We're caught in the doldrums. The tremendous lure of the adventure of time has passed. And we haven't yet entered the forward-moving stream of eternity. And this is when you get real reminiscent. You know, like old gabbers want to refight the Civil War.
And, of course, I think that's nice to have that, too, because I'd like to get some sleep at that time.
Audience: Laughter.
I'm going to be a little tired after that long ascent, and I think it's very sweet that they put in two real easy circles at the tail end. Before you meet the challenge of Paradise, which is something yet again. Can you imagine being asked out to tea by a transcendentaler?
Audience: Laughter.
Holy Toledo.
Audience: You mean you wouldn't know which spoon to pick up?
Audience: Laughter.
I don't know absonite etiquette.
Audience: Laughter. Bill doesn't drink tea anyway.
Yes.
Audience: You don't think they'll solve (can't understand tape). (Everyone talking at once). Laughter. What time is it?
Well, there's some real challenges on Paradise, because they tell us, when we get time off we like to hang out around with the Supernaphim because they remind us of the Seraphim. And we kind of feel at home with these people, see? And many of these things on Paradise are going to be terribly strange to us.
Audience: Well, I think that's what this person (can't understand tape) some relief and some understanding.
Sure we do. This whole thing has been set up by a personal God. He understands personality. He is personality. When you get there, there's always somebody waiting to meet you. And they have a nature which is inherently somewhat like yours. They're Orvonton-like. And, what's more, they've looked up your file.
Audience: Oh.
Yeah. They know who you are.
Audience: I know, but that's a little discouraging.
Audience: Laughter.
Well, by that time, you'll have some good things in there, too, you know. I hope.
Audience: Another thing that I like is that this planet has their own section that we'll (can't understand tape) to begin with, so that we don't feel like we come just head on with other planets who have a different experience.
Clyde, did I ever show you Paradise magnitudes?
Audience: Paradise magnitudes.
I'm not going to read this, because it doesn't read, but I'll--Clyde will get a kick out of looking at this. I'll just take it out. No, I won't either.
Audience: Golly, I finally (can't understand tape).
Just put that thing down, you'll get (can't understand tape). You know, I like this idea of the adventure. The adventure with spiritual security. But no security anywhere else. Lots of intellectual uncertainty. You know it's going to come out, because this is your Father's house in which you live. This tremendous universe. He's looking for you. He's expecting you. And this doesn't mean, though, that you're going to succeed on this particular assignment. You got to sweat a little bit. But in the overall, no doubt at all.
"Uncertainty with security" is the whole story, I think, of the ascent to Paradise. Uncertainty as to the problems of time. Complete security as to your status in eternity.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
You don't know when you're going to get there, you know you will. See, when you fuse with your Thought Adjuster--and this normally happens pretty early in the career--on, what is it, the fifth mansion world?
Audience: Fifth.
Spiritually you've got it made, right there. But experientially, intellectually, in every other way, you've got to earn it. But when you fuse with your Adjuster, God has found you. It merely remains for you to find him.
Audience: There you have to have some cosmic insight before that fusion. You have to earn a lot of cosmic insight, do you not?
Yes, you do. But if you want to, Berk, what could stop you?
Audience: Nothing.
Nothing.
Audience: But--
Remember, "What a son desires, and the Father wills, IS."
Audience: "And the Father wills, IS. "
Audience: But what cosmic insight we can get while we're here is just going to be that much more helpful.
Yes.
Audience: That's the reason Berk's working so hard.
Audience: Laughter.
I'll tell you what this sort of thinking means to me. I understand this life better. I can seethis life in better perspective.
Audience: That's what it means to me.
I expect this life to be fairly rugged. This is boot training.
Audience: We know why it's rugged now.
Yes.
Audience: Good expression, boot training.
It's boot training. Yes. It's a shaking out process. As I've said to the group before, if they had an archway over the first mansion world like in Ellis Island--an entrance--that they'd have two mottoes on there: "No pantywaist need apply," and, "We don't want any S.O.B.s, either."
Audience: Laughter.
That's (can't understand tape) between these extremes, I think, is what they're recruiting. They're recruiting tough, loving people. People that are basically tough, but all this toughness is subordinated to love. They're kindly, tough people.
Audience: I was thinking here--I read this quite often, but I don't know anything--you just said it. But I don't know anything any more encouraging than what it said on the cover of this--
Holding the (can't understand tape).
Audience: (can't understand tape) limited purpose, or progress, and endless life. But the thing I like the best is it's, "ours for the striving. " Endlessly striving. The challenge is there, but it's ours. Think of an endless expanding. A never-ending, ever-widening sphere of opportunity.
Right. And all we've been doing this afternoon is trying to say, "How big are those words?" And we've discovered they're quite big. They're very big. You see, I can't calculate spiritual growth. There are no words. But trying to calculate physical size, duration in time, all I can say is, "Here's the outspread. Spiritual growth takes place all during this span. Whatever that may mean." But that's big, too.
Audience: You said, "a sense of value growth." Whose?
That was in discussing a feeling about time.
Audience: Yes.
The more of the past and the future we invest the present moment with, the greater the value of the present moment. We were talking about what Rodan talked about, "The Lures of Maturity." Where he said, don't set cheap goals, and quick victories; the mature person subordinates the passing pleasures of the present for the more permanent pleasures--
Break in tape.
Next: Part 11