WILLIAM S. SADLER, JR.
23 July 1960
OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA
Part 6 of 11
Transcribed by Kristen Maaherra
Scanned by Christel Schmidt
Formatted by David KantorPart 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11
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Well, let's put it this way. I'm not so sure they're always resident there, but that's where they have an office.
Audience: Of course, the Eternal of Days does.
Yeah. And if the Eternal of Days leaves, the Censor doesn't take over. It's a Trinity Teacher Son who takes over.
Audience: That's right.
Audience: And that's what I want to ask you next.
All right.
Audience: I wish you would, in your own words, describe the way the Trinity Teacher Sons and the Inspired Trinity Spirits work on our conscious and superconscious minds.
(Can't understand tape). (The reel is on there?) The Teacher Sons are extremely versatile, being of Trinity origin--now I wonder, are they Trinity origin or Triunity origin? Were they created by the Paradise Trinity or were they created by the Universal Father, the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit? There's a difference. I think they're--
Audience: It says they're Trinity origin, though, doesn't it?
I think there's a weasel in here. I think there's a weasel, Berk, I'm not sure. In page 330, they give you an out.
Audience: Page 330?
Un-huh. Where it speaks of (Roman I in the Paradise register):
"Beings created by all three Paradise Deities, either as such or as the Trinity ... " And I've long questioned whether Trinity Teacher Sons were produced by the corporation or by the three directors. I don't know. It's not important. But I think they tend to lump triune and trinity.
These beings can pinch-hit for an Eternal of Days. They're members of the co-ordinate cabinet of the Ancients of Days. They work down here in the local universes. They're the big cheeses in the educational system in the local universe. They're the last sons to minister on an evolving world When they complete their ministry, we enter the year of light and life. They terminate the last of the unsettled dispensations. They're closely identified with the Finaliters. They're undoubtedly going out into outer space with the Finaliters. As teachers, they probably have a liaison with the Inspired Trinity Spirits, who are mysterious to even folks at this level, because no one can perceive an Inspired Trinity Spirit, except a Trinity-origin being. I think I'm right in this, am I not, Berk?
Audience: Or even some of those, I wouldn't think, could. They can perceive--is that Solitary Messenger--
No, they can sense their presence. These Inspired Trinity Spirits come and go, the Solitary Messengers detect them. But I think unless they're assigned to the command of a Trinity-origin being, I don't think they're visible to him. I'm using the word "visible" loosely. Now, when a local universe is settled in light and life, the Union of Days stationed on the local universe capitol, has a corps of Trinity spirits assigned to him. And I think he perceives them, or he couldn't be their commander.
They are related to Solitary Messengers, because it seems as though, as the Solitary Messengers are in withdrawal--being withdrawn from service for reasons that are not germane to this story--their places are being taken by the Trinity Spirits. And this again is a part of a shift from the evolutionary period of development, where single-origin and dual-origin beings predominate, to settled status in light and life, where more trinity-origin beings take over.
From an educational standpoint, there is a close relationship between the Teacher Sons and the Trinity Spirits. The Teacher Sons teach consciously. The author of the Paper on co-ordinate Trinity-origin beings believes that the Inspired Trinity Spirits teach superconsciously, that there's a very great amount of information which--if you are conscious of receiving it--you would foul it up. Your ego would get involved, or something. And so it's got to be given to you in an unconscious or superconscious way. And here's where the Inspired Trinity Spirits take up where the Trinity Teacher Sons leave off, because their teaching would be highly perceivable by the pupil. If you go to school and an Inspired Teacher Son is teaching, you're going to know you're in class and being taught. But if a Trinity Spirit is teaching, you'd be supremely unaware of it. Let's see what they say in here. Page 220, paragraph 5. Now who's writing this Paper? A Divine Counsellor:
"We know that the Trinity Teacher Sons are devoted to the conscious enlightenment of universe creatures. I have arrived at the settled conclusion that the Inspired Trinity Spirits, by superconscious techniques, are also functioning as teachers of the realms. I am persuaded that there is a vast body of essential spiritual knowledge, truth indispensable to high spiritual attainment, which cannot be consciously received; self-consciousness would effectively jeopardize the certainty of reception. If we are right in this concept, and my entire order of being shares it, it may be the mission of these Inspired Spirits to overcome this difficulty, to bridge this gap in the universal scheme of moral enlightenment and spiritual advancement. We think that these two types of Trinity-origin teachers effect some kind of liaison in their activities, but we do not really know." (220.5)
Then he goes on to buttress his opinion. I've talked to people, and they've said, "You know, we think you're right. We think this has happened to us; we didn't know it at the time. "
Audience: Well, that's what I was going to ask you. Do you think sometimes, or--have you ever experienced this thing, you know something, and you don't know how you know it?
That's true. Of course, in the case of humans, I think that would be more apt to be Adjuster action.
Audience: Well, that's what I wondered.
Or the Spirit of Truth. Which would be quite analogous. Because if your Thought Adjuster taught you something, I don't think you'd be at all aware of it at the time.
Audience: Well, that's what I mean. When all of a sudden you know something, and you think, "Well, how do I know that?"
When Peter said to Jesus, "You're the Son of the living God," Jesus said to Peter, "No man has told you this, but you've gotten this information from my Father's spirit who indwells you. And on the relationship of the Spirit of God and the mind of man, I will build the brotherhood of the kingdom. "
Now the other half of Peter's confession was an error. Jesus was not the Messiah. So he just talked about--isn't that so typical of the human being who sees truth? Half truth, half fa1se. He said, "You are the Messiah, son of the living God. "
That's a classic example, I think, of internal revelation. Now, I think that Peter had known that for a long time, but I don't think he discovered it consciously until that moment. But I think it had been there for some time.
Audience: All of a sudden, he knew, but he didn't really realize how he knew.
That's right. You see, the whole business of survival and the exploration of the universe is a two-way proposition. You are exploring--in the last analysis--God, on the outside. And at the same time, you'll be exploring the depths of the fragment of God on the inside, who lives within you. And I don't think you're ever going to get to the end of either one. Because while the Adjuster is qualitatively limited, he's qualitatively one with the Father in divinity. And I think that qualitative exploration inside is going to take just as long as the qualitative and quantitative exploration is going to take on the outside.
Example: When you fuse with your Adjuster, one of the things that the Adjuster contributes to the new partnership is past eternal memory. But I don't think you can appreciate this yet; you haven't got the capacity. Now, after you've lived a million years, yeah, I think you can appreciate a million years worth of it. So while you're going forward a million years, I think you're also going backward a million years in your conscious ability to appropriate that which the Adjuster offers you. You follow me?
Now, when you've lived a trillion years-we'll skip a billion, that's too short a time--when you've lived a trillion years, then I think you can go back a trillion years, too. When you've lived a gazillion years--now, that's an absolute term--
Audience: That's a good word.
It's a hell of a big number.
Audience: Laughter. Gazillion.
When you've lived a gazillion years, then you can really reach back quite a ways--but even so, that's not all past eternity.
Audience: There's one more.
Sure.
Audience: You can always add ones.
Mr. President, can we have our--
Audience: Madame Secretary, would it be time for coffee?
Can we have a quick break?
Break in tape.
Spiritually, you're limited by the threshold of Adjuster fusion. In other words, you can't progress but just so far on a world, or you fuse with your Adjuster, and you're removed. Now you know that's not your limit of spiritual progression, but it's your limit of planetary spiritual progression.
But intellectually--absolutely no limit. They have never encountered a ceiling on mind. I'll tell you why I think that is. Here's my theory. The Supreme Being has a growth limit in the present universe age, physically and spiritually. But the Supreme Mind is believed to have a Master Universe range of function. And that's why I don't believe you hit an intellectual ceiling. At least, I tend to associate those two statements of facts together. So, even on a world settled in light and life, there is no static condition intellectually.
Audience: Will we not ever arrive on Paradise?
Yes.
Audience: Well, then we'll have it made.
No. When we arrive on Paradise-
Audience: Then Paradise evolves.
Nope.
Audience: You just got your first ticket to the major office.
Audience: Well, you got to go back down and help everybody else?
Yep.
Audience: You've been going to a tent shows.
Audience: That's when you really get going?
Audience: You'll probably get to go to an opera.
Let me read you the last paragraph in a Paper here that's real cute.
Audience: What I'm trying to do is (can't understand tape) out loud. I think I know in my own mind--
On page 305. This is the end of the Paradise ascent, now:
"After the attainment of the supreme satisfaction of the fullness of worship, you are qualified for admission to the Corps of the Finality. The ascendant career is well-nigh finished, and the seventh jubilee prepares for celebration. The first jubilee marked the mortal agreement with the Thought Adjuster when the purpose to survive was sealed; the second was the awakening in the morontia life; the third was the fusion with the Thought Adjuster; the forth was the awakening in Havona; the fifth celebrated the finding of the Universal Father; and the sixth jubilee was the occasion of the Paradise awakening from the final transit slumber of time. The seventh jubilee marks entrance into the mortal finaliter corps and the beginning of the eternity service. The attainment of the seventh stage of spirit realization by a finaliter--"
You're only a sixth stage being, yet
"--will probably signalize the celebration of the first" of the jubilees of eternity." (305.2)
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
"And thus ends the story of the Paradise supernaphim, the highest order of all the ministering spirits, those beings who, as a universal class, ever attend you from the world of your origin until you are finally bidden farewell by the conductors of worship as you take the Trinity oath of eternity and are mustered into the Mortal Corps of the Finality.
"The endless service of the Paradise Trinity is about to begin; and now the finaliter is face to face with the challenge of God the Ultimate." (305.3,4)
Well, look. One of the things I'm trying to do in this study of the Master Universe is to get a feeling and to transmit a feeling how much bigger God the Ultimate is than God the Supreme. Big as is the Supreme Being.
And all I can say is this, if the whole Paradise ascent and the settling of the superuniverses could be done in about a second's time, it would take four months to find God the Ultimate.
Audience: That doesn't minimize your concept, does it?
No. Not in the least
Audience: But it sure does illuminate your thinking as to what God the Ultimate is all about.
Right. This is a challenge of an altogether different magnitude.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Audience: He's ready to start when you're able to even conceive of this book you're just kind of (can't understand tape).
That's right. Now, actually, here's what happens. As a finaliter, you spend some time on Paradise. You get acquainted. You're in a corps, but I doubt very much you're in a company, yet. You haven't been organized within the corps. I think you enjoy residence on Paradise as a finaliter. I think you re-explore Havona. To finaliters, it's their workshop. I think you vacation on Ascendington. That's where we have our time off.
And then one day, you get summoned to Paradise, and you're organized into a finaliter company of about a thousand of your peers. Then you begin the big circuit of the seven superuniverses. You see, all of our experience was in superuniverse number seven. And we will serve in the other six before we ever come back here. Because each of, these superuniverses is permeated by one of the Master Spirits, and our experience in that superuniverse qualifies us to make a new approach to God from that perspective. And not until we have made the complete circuit of all seven, as finaliters, have we begun to exhaust the finite possibilities of the comprehension of the Universal Father. There are seven basic viewpoints, or perspectives, from which we can view God.
Audience: As finite.
As finite. And by serving in each superuniverse, we acquire something of that perspective, so that we augment the seventh perspective with the first, then the second, then the third, and so forth. So even on the finite level, we've got a lot left to do.
Audience: I want to ask a question.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Audience: When God the Supreme is actualized, there's a great big group of beings who just were mustered into the corps of the finality.
Um-huh.
Audience: You mean, technically speaking, just immediately before?
Audience: Now, will they be able to recognize God the Supreme until they have traversed the other six superuniverses?
Audience: I would say yes.
Audience: I didn't ask you
We know this, Berk. When any of us find him, all of us will find him. Now, I've done some thinking about this. I've thought of the transitional difficulties to be encountered as the seven superuniverses near completion.
Example. Let's take this on a local universe level. It's a little more wieldy. We're told that when a planet passes (I think it's) the third stage of light and life, you know, if you're born on such a world, then you have to go back and serve on more primitive worlds to make up for your deficiencies. But what are you going to do when your local universe runs out of these primitive worlds? That's your question all over again.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Well, when there aren't any worlds that aren't settled in light and life. This happens. Because someday the whole local universe will be settled.
Audience: You don't think there'll be new ones?
No. They'll stop planting life on worlds sometime in a local universe. There comes a time when they plant life on the last world in a local universe. And then there comes a time when that planet is settled in light and life. It's the Junior planet. And then there aren't any more primitive worlds that you can get experience on.
Audience: You don't think all universes are going to have primitive worlds?
No, because we know that there are local universes that are settled in light and life. And they contain no primitive worlds. This is hard for us to conceive.
Audience: But there'll be no more local universes?
Eventually. They'll start commissioning Creator Sons. There are only going to be 700 thousand local universes.
Audience: Well, I think that'll stop.
Yes, that will stop some day.
Audience: Well, what happens then?
What Berk is saying is that as this thing nears completion, the machinery--the old machinery--won't work any more. And you're right, Berk, it won't. And just exactly how they're going to bridge this transitional period, I don't know. But near the end of the present universe age, some of the things that have been characteristic of this universe age will no longer be characteristic.
Audience: (Everyone talking at once).
Now, here is part of the answer. This I developed in my story. You know there's a quiet zone between space levels? I think there's a quiet time between universe ages. I think that the end of the second age does not immediately witness the dawn of the third age. I think there's a period during which we consolidate the present age. The Supreme Being is here, and nobody's gone out into the first outer space level. These finaliters have a chance to make at least a token circuit after they've found the Supreme. This is again unusual. Everything gets balanced out and caught up, but I think-
Audience: Does creation stop here?
Yeah. No more creation.
Audience: Isn't that interesting?
No more new worlds.
Audience: I mean, what about humans? Will creatures, humans.
I'll come to that in a minute. At any rate, they consolidate all the rag-tag ends of the present universe age. What happens on a planet, I would give a lot to know, because I don't quite see how human beings can make it to the corps of the finality. Because when the Supreme Being has completed his evolution, finite experience has come to an end. And this applies to human beings on worlds settled in light and life. Because you can't have finite experience except the Supreme Being is incomplete and growing. Now, there's still going to be human beings, but they're going to be postfinite experience human beings. What those human beings are like, passes my imagination. I've even wondered if procreation would keep on.
Audience: Yes, that's what I wonder.
Yes. I don't know.
Audience: They're going to be--should be interesting. They'll be--(Can't understand tape). They will not have full participation in the growth of the Supreme.
They will have no participation in the growth of the Supreme. None whatsoever.
Audience: After he eventualizes.
Yes, because he isn't growing anymore. You see, Leona, what we call growth--experience--and we think it's natural and normal and eterna1--it isn't. It's natural and normal to the present universe age, during which the Supreme Being is growing. And when he stops growing, then growth as we know it and experience it will be a past event.
Audience: That doesn't mean that he will really stop growing?
He will stop growing--
Audience: Then you won't have-
He will stop growing in the sense that he's now growing.
Audience: Well ...
He'l1 begin his postfinite growth. But there will be no more finite experience.
Audience: Patience. Tell her there'll be something new coming up.
Audience: Laughter. That's what I know!
Absonite growth will take over. You see, this thing can come to an end, because it is finite. It has a limit. And while that limit is very remote, it is attainable. Anything which has a finite limit can be reached, given enough time.
Audience: Yes.
Now, what worlds like this are going to be like, I just can't imagine. I've thought about it. The Papers question whether such mortals will be destined to the corps of the finality. Or will they become more like Havona natives?
Audience: They will, I think. Wouldn't you think?
I'm inclined to think so, yes. Something like that.
Audience: Well, the four, and the many, outer space levels are eventually developed? I cannot see why these wouldn't function in some capacity, not necessarily similar but analogous to, the various worlds that we find at this moment.
Yes. I agree. These are going to be training worlds for outer-spacers some day.
Audience: To get some training, this world. I think these planets--
In the next universe age.
Audience: In the next universe age they will not be utilized for the same thing as they are now utilized.
Audience: But you know that a creature born after the Supreme Being is actualized isn't going to have the authority and the seniority that Grandfanda has.
No.
Audience: How do you know there's going to be any born after he's actualized?
That's a good question. No one can answer that question.
Audience: How do you know? You're postulating something that you--
Audience: I don't know. But I'm saying should they be, they wouldn't have.
These are wonderful questions.
Audience: Laughter.
Audience: Well, I'm confused. We're reaching the time now, at the end of this universe age, when God the Supreme is actualized. There will be some beings still on this planet.
Yes.
Audience: And this planet will reach the age of light and life.
It's been there for a long time. It's in the seventh stage of light and life.
Audience: Why don't we just say that--(can't understand tape)-now are they going to be robbed of this whole ascent that we're making? They won't go through the mansion worlds--they've got no necessity of it. Will they become Jerusem citizens, go on to Salvington?
Not as we do it, no. Impossible.
Audience: There'll be a shortcut there.
Audience: They might be given something more fruitful. I don't know. I don't like the word "robbed." They will be denied this, but they might have something in turn--
Let's put it this way--
Audience: You see, they'll never have the experience that we have, this lowly experience.
Audience: They'll be born smart
Audience: We're fortunate.
That's right. But we were denied the experience of the Havona native who was created perfect.
Audience: Yes, but I think we got more than they got.
I agree.
Audience: Maybe the next guys in back of us will get more than we got, too.
Audience: I don't see how they could.
I agree with you
Audience: With this plan in the local universe-
Audience: Laughter. (Everyone talking at once).
But I don't see how it can go on until it comes to an end.
Audience: I don't either. But when it does come to an end, what's going to happen to the guys in back of us?
I don't know. You got me. I'm backed into a comer now. I don't know. I've debated--
Audience: Are they going to be finaliters, or what?
The Papers raise that question--and don't answer it. Will procreation keep on? Will death keep on?
Audience: You mean in the superuniverse?
On the inhabited world. I assume, J.B., let's say this happens on Tuesday morning, February 11th. And this world has got a population--a sensible population--of, let's say, a billion people. Not crowded. Comfortable. And these are wonderful people, tremendous intellects, wonderful spiritual people. Now all of a sudden the Supreme Being is here. And here are these billion people. And this planet is a--we'd call it heaven, or utopia. There's no conflicts, no problems. Education is excellent. Income tax is low.
Audience: Laughter.
Audience: Employment is full.
That's right.
Audience: It sounds awful dull.
To me it does, too. Well, we wouldn't fit that world. But we're here now. But if we'd been born into that world, we'd consider it--it would be natural.
Audience: It would be kind of like what we think of heaven, wouldn't it?
Yes. I would like to know what-- This happens at high noon, Tuesday, February 11th. It's ended. The total is taken off and written down. They aren't putting any more figures in there, now. It's a completed thing. The afternoon is different from the morning.
Audience: Uh-huh.
But I don't know how.
Audience: There's a whole thing in the Bible that says, "The last shall be first and the first shall be last." Everybody will be free and equal and when this happens it may be (can't understand tape) for all time.
And again, maybe this quiet period is part of the answer. Maybe that's how they even things out and equalize things.
Audience: Maybe we take a billion years of vacation.
Could be.
Audience: Till they catch up with you?
To me, this quiet period could be ten-
Audience: I love that quiet period. Thesis-
Uh-huh.
Audience: I don't understand what the analogy would be (can't understand tape).
You mean, at that time? I don't know either. You see, the universe is in transition now, from the second to the third age. I've got some ideas about the third age. We're living in the second age. The transitional period is, in many ways, more difficult to conceive than the third age is.
Audience: What's the third age?
The third age is when we invade outer space. And open up-
Audience: And then you'll (can't understand tape)?
Yes. This is a new deal. This is where the finaliters really go to work.
Audience: They never quit growing.
That's right
Audience: Quit playing with the Texas (can't understand tape).
They stop in the seven superuniverses, but not in the first outer space level. In other words, they let this subdivision get all the sewers and all the sidewalks in.
Audience: You feel better now?
Audience: I feel better now, thank you.
Audience: (Everyone talking at once).
Audience: Those that haven't made the other six universes, just absolutely can't be comparable to those that have.
That's right. Or maybe they may go around and do it in a faster way, and get the best equivalent that they can.
Audience: (Everyone talking at once).
Audience: Bread ... go on ... skip some catch up with the
best. .. they're going to be bright, I think . we may never ... we may have a rest period .
No, never.
Audience: You know what I bet will happen at one o'clock?
Humm.
Audience: I bet the goddess of sex abdicates.
I don't know.
Audience: Who? Who abdicates?
Sex.
Audience: The goddess of sex will abdicate at one o'clock-what's her name?
Aphrodite.
Audience: Aphrodite. She's named several different things. Now that gives a pretty good function to a space material.
I've done this in my study, more in the Appendices. When I get out of ideas, I reason by analogy. And I think, when we consider these planets--and I've got to deal with it some way in here--I'm going to go to the midsoniters for my analogy. They're not mortal; they're not immortal. They're not immortal, because they're not spirit indwelt. They're not mortal, because none has ever died. They reproduce on a controlled basis, and at the end of a thousand years, they're translated. And if I had to offer anything by comparison, I would offer a midsonite planet as the advance notice of what this world is going to be like some day. I'd rather lean on that analogy than try to dream up something wholly new.
Audience: As to what this planet is going to be like?
Um-hum.
Audience: After we abdicate?
Audience: I don't want it to be like that while we're here. We'll be long gone.
Audience: Bill, I'm stupid on the midsoniters.
Midsoniters are the one planet in each local system.
Audience: All right.
It's where a mother Eve--it's where the Adamic strain has been upstepped instead of downstepped by crossover with a Melchizedek line. It's a combination Adamic-Melchizedek blood strain.
Audience: They have a blood strain lineage.
Yes.
Audience: They're not an eventuated being.
No, no.
Audience: Well, good.
The father of this race is a Melchizedek life carrier. The mother of this race is an Eve. And their children--well, they just don't classify. The Melchizedeks teach that these children, these midsoniters, someday will be indwelt by the spirit of absonity coming from God the Ultimate.
Audience: Is that what you mean when you say in a thousand years they'll be translated? To what?
They're translated to the finaliter's world in the near regions of Salvington.
Audience: And there, their function is-
To take up residence.
Audience: --isn't discussed.
No. Now, in the later era of light and life, these midsoniters become functional in the local universe. And they act as teachers.
Audience: What kind of teachers are they?
With the Trinity Teacher Sons.
Audience: With, not before? Concurrent.
Audience: Well, they didn't learn experientially.
Yes, they could But they're real superhuman beings. Now, they're procreating beings until they're translated, then they're deprived of their powers of procreation.
Audience: (Can't understand tape) pretty potent.
They're pretty potent.
Audience: What do you mean besides?
Whenever you're taken off a planet, you lose your powers of procreation. If you're removed by translation. For example, all the children of Adam and Eve. And all the Adamites that volunteered to leave after the default lost their powers of procreation. There's no procreation on the higher worlds.
Audience: Well, the Material Sons, they have children before they come to this country.
That's right, but when they're translated from their planet, then they stop procreating.
Audience: But they were translated down here, and could
Yeah, that works, going down--but not going back.
Audience: 'Cause it tells you how many children they had.
Audience: (Can't understand tape) ... (Everyone talking at once) ... yeah, but they had to get one that ... they're ascending sons .. .I think they're volunteers ...
From our system capitol.
Audience: Jesus. That's where he is.
These Material Sons really exist on three levels. In each local system, there's the original pair, who are personally created by Michael. And they would be distinctly different, because they would have no belly buttons. Because there never was a placenta.
Audience: I never thought of that.
Yeah.
Audience: (Can't understand tape). Audience: Laughter.
The original Adam originally--
Audience: (Everyone talking at once). Laughter.
It doesn't say that in the Papers.
Audience: They're handmade. Probably faxed.
This is Adam and Eve of Satania. And they are unconditionally immortal, just like a Lanonandek. They'd have to be blotted out of existence by adjudicational action.
End of Tape.
Side 5
When they procreate, or when their children procreate, they produce beings of conditional immortality. Now, these are the Material Sons and Daughters who are born on Jerusem. They retain immortality so long as they don't rebel. So long as they maintain functional contact with the mind circuits of the local universe. If they lose that contact, they can die. A certain percentage of these Material Sons volunteer to serve as planetary Adams and Eves, as did ours. They had private names upon Jerusem, but when they come down here on earth, they take their generic name, the name of their original ancestors. Adam and Eve of Urantia. I don't know what their names were on Jerusem. I'm sure they weren't Adam and Eve, because there's a lot of them.
When they come down here, they retain their conditional immortality. But they loose the capacity to beget conditionally immortal sons and daughters. Their children are all mortal beings. Long-lived, but mortal.
Now, in the era of light and life, they might be joined by other Material Sons and Daughters from Jerusem. But those beings would never be brought down here as procreating beings. They would be deprived of their powers of procreation when they served on the planet. See, they only want to mix the germ plasm once. If they're removed from the planet by death or translation, again, they lose their procreative powers.
Audience: But if they progress over and then come back--
They never do that.
Audience: What was that she talking about a while ago?
Midsoniters.
Audience: Well, you said on the descent they can become ...
As the planetary Adam and Eve.
Audience: Oh, I see.
Because they're designed to found a race down here. Now later on in the years of light and life, other Adams and Eves, other Material Sons and Daughters, may elect to serve on a planet. But they would serve as corporeal but non-reproducing beings.
See, they're real fussy about germ plasm.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Normal. You want me to describe a normal planet?
Audience: Uh-huh.
Let me tell you a story. This is a story of a young man who lives on a normal world. They haven't yet had a Bestowal Son, like Jesus, but theirs is an advanced world--they're getting ready for him. It had a Magisterial Son. No, they haven't either. They're getting ready for a Magisterial Son. And they're in a state of pretty high civilization. There hasn't been a war in 28 thousand years. And their physical sciences are pretty well advanced.
And this young man--his name is Ronay--not a strange name, but not one of our names, either. Ronay. And he has just gotten a letter. It's all encrusted with seals. And he stood a competitive examination. And this letter informs him that he has won an Eden Scholarship. And he's all excited In fact, he's all shook up.
Audience: Laughter.
This authorizes him to complete his university studies at the Garden University, for the next 6 years. And he's real excited, and he gets on the monorail going across town, because he wants to talk to his grandfather, because his grandfather has an Eden Scholarship. And the old man is pretty hale and hardy, because he's relatively young--he's only 128 years old-he's retired, he retired about 3 years earlier. They have compulsory retirement at 125.
Audience: Laughter.
Audience: You're really making it a story while you're at it.
I might as well make up a good story.
Audience: Yeah.
And so, the young man comes barging in, and the old boy's sitting in his study, reading. And he says, "Look, gramps, I got an Eden Scholarship!"
"Well, now," gramps says, "Isn't that fine." He says, "Look, you had one of these. " "Yes, I did, years and years ago. " "Well," he says, "what's it like? What's it like to study in Eden?" "Well," he says. "It's very wonderful. It's very beautiful. They've got some teaching methods over there that they still haven't gotten into the outlying universities." He said, "You will learn in 6 years what you might spend 15 years learning elsewhere. The instruction is superb." And he said, "You'll be thrilled by the beauty of Eden. "
The young man broke in, and he said, "Well, tell me," he said, "This Adam and Eve, they don't die." "No" he said, "they don't die. " "Well, how do you know?" "Well, now," he said, "when I went there--and that's over a hundred years ago-- I found them, and they were in the prime of life, acting as gracious sovereigns of their Garden city. " And he said, "My great-grandfather also had an Eden Scholarship, and I talked to him when he was an old man, the same as you're talking to me, and he told me that he'd found them in the prime of life, too. And, son," he said, "you will find them just as I found them. "
"Well, what keeps them alive, Grandpa?" "They're immortal." "Gee, to think I'm going to Eden!" The old man lit his pipe again, and he says, "Well," he says, "let me tell you something. Eden is wonderful--but if you ever have a chance when you're there--beyond the easterly mountains, lies another city, the oldest city on this planet, the city of the Prince. You should visit that city while you're there. "
You see, we don't have them. We have no signs. We have no proof of immortality. We have no ancient Eden which is even then overshadowed by Dalamatia, which is more ancient. Or the corporal staff of the Prince date from the times of the arrival of Adam--or the children of the original staff who departed. We have none of these signs, and that's why we're called
"Agondonters," which means we can believe without any proof.Which in essence, is what Jesus said to Thomas in the upper chamber, when Thomas, you know, had just been through saying, "I wouldn't believe it unless I could put my fingers in the nail holes in his hands," and then Jesus appeared? And Thomas knelt, and he believed. And Jesus made that famous remark, "Thomas," he said, "you have perceived and of course you believe, but blessed are they in the ages to come who believe though they see not. "
["You have believed, Thomas, because you have really seen and heard me. Blessed are those in the ages to come who will believe even though they have not seen with the eye of flesh nor heard with the mortal ear." (2043.4)]
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
No, he was here with Adam.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Oh, normally. Let's not say Caligastia, let's say Planetary Prince, because Caligastia is kind of a dirty word.
Audience: Laughter.
Normally, when a planet is settled in light and life, that's when the Trinity Teacher Sons are bidding farewell to the planet. Then they bring down, to this planet, a morontia temple. This is built by the morontia power supervisors. And it's not exactly material, but it's not immaterial, either. And it can be made visible to the people of earth, just as Jesus was made visible after his resurrection. He was a morontia being. And the first thing that happens in that temple is the Paradise Bestowal Son returns to that planet. And there, in the presence of the planetary authorities, he proclaims the Planetary Prince, Planetary Sovereign. In other words, he gives to the Planetary Prince the very thing that Caligastia was trying to steal. The Prince eventually becomes a Sovereign.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
That's right There's no way. And Adam and Eve function, you might say. as joint Prime Ministers. serving the invisible Sovereign.
Audience: Now. is the Sovereign visible when-
He can be made visible. in the morontia temple.
Audience: Do they rule (can't understand tape).
Yes. From the morontia temple and from their subsidiary capitols.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
No. You have an entirely different kind of planetary government Eventually. Adam and Eve leave the planet, farther along in the stages of light and life. and their place is taken by a human, elected chief executive, who serves for 25 years.
They tell us that it is the old principle of Adam and Eve that makes kings and queens acceptable on the planet. And they say kings and queens are very successful when the king is Adam and the queen is Eve, and when they're serving an invisible Lanonandek son who is planetary sovereign. It works very nicely.
You see, we've missed a lot. Think what it would mean to have Eden here. And don't think of Eden as just a garden. Think of it as a garden city. A university city. And then there would be the city of the Prince, too. Think how easy it is to believe when you have so much that you can see.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
We wouldn't know what to do with those luxuries.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Yes, it would all be one people. One language. You see, they would be a much finer people than we are, because the first thing they do is, they shoot for a 50% amalgamation with Adam's blood. And I guess the white race has the largest percentage of his blood. And we probably don't have much more than 4 to 6 per cent. You think of the most difficult looking people in the world and conceive of what their children would look like if they were 50% of Adam. We're basically blue men, Cro-Magnons, crossed with just a little bit of Adam's blood. The north Chinese have a little. The north Indians have a little. And that about accounts for it.
We have just about enough of Adam's blood to fire up our adventure and our meanness but not enough to make us easy to civilize.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
In this world? I don't think so. We've got to work out a different solution to our problems.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Sure. We're going a different route.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
We'll be one government someday, but probably not one people, probably not one race. We will have one language someday-- but that's a long ways away.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
The blue book, I think, is their effort to attack this by spiritual means and to provide the basis for a religion for all mankind, a religion that will cut across national boundaries.
You see, Christianity is terribly embarrassed when it leaves white man's country, because it's been associated with trading, with colonialism, with bad practices, with suppression of natives, and the average non-European looks upon Christianity as a strange religion for strange people. Now, if this blue book can avoid that contamination and can spread by the printing press all over the world, there's a hope for a mankind religion.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Well, no it shouldn't. Of course, it's got to start someplace. But I hope, gee I hope it's translated into 15 languages when I check out. We've got it in a second language--and, incidentally, I think the second most potent language in the world.
Audience: Bill, what is the functional liaison between the Adam and Eve of your story and the Planetary Prince as of right now?
He's the sovereign; they're his joint prime ministers.
Audience: I mean, the Planetary Prince is the ruling sovereign?
Yes.
Audience: Even though it has not been bestowed as such?
It has been bestowed as such, when the planet's settled in light and life he is proclaimed sovereign.
Audience: Do they now have the university in the Garden of Eden? Prior to the second stage of light and life?
Sure.
Audience: And a mortal could attain such goals--of going to that university city? At that time. what's the relationship between that city and Dalamatia? Or whatever Dalamatia would be called on that planet.
They function as quasi-independent centers until a Magisterial Son appears on the planet. One of the things that a Magisterial Son does on a normal planet is to unify the two administrations. When he's through, then they consolidate Dalamatia and Eden.
Audience: I see.
Audience: Then the Prince is the functional head?
Yes. but not the sovereign yet.
Audience: I don't mean sovereign, the functional head. Adam and Eve are his high (can't understand tape).
Adam and Eve, until light and life, as I visualize it, Clyde, they wield a very compelling sovereignty, but it is more social than political. And because it's not political, it probably has a much greater impact. They set the fashion. And here, congress can legislate all it pleases, but you gals will wear what comes out of Paris, do you follow me? Paris dictates to you, not the congress. And if the congress said skirts will be so long this year, you'd say, "Ah." , but if Christian Dior says skirts will be so long this year, you're right down there getting skirts. Now. which is the stronger sovereign?
Adam and Eve set the tone of the planet. It is a social sovereignty which probably is all the more potent because it is social.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
No, it would deal with trade, manufacture, science; they teach religion, too. Eden is--normally--the source of science. First they get the world unified under one government. Then they have a great scientific age. So you see, warfare remains fairly simple.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
Not with scientific means. I think our world must be unique, locally, because we fight scientific wars. And normally, your scientific era would come after the establishment of world government. Wars aren't so bad if you've got to hack them out with a sword, you know. It's these big bombs.
Audience: Just fists and rocks wouldn't be so bad--
Yeah. No, it isn't too bad then. Your casualty list is smaller. But this way you can take a whole city out.
Audience: We have rotted in one direction and speeding so far and fast in the other direction that we're completely out of balance.
That's right. We are. Seriously. We've got the tools of civilization, but we haven't got the religion, the philosophy, the ethics, the morality of civilization. We remind me of a bunch of 3 year olds playing with loaded 45s. Those 45s are potent.
Audience: (Can't understand tape) an atomic war--would they allow a race--if they don't allow a race to be killed out, what would happen when they started bombing us? They could kill out this whole race.
I think they'd preserve mankind.
Audience: They would save one?
They would preserve human germ plasm. Now, short of that I don't think they'd intervene.
Audience: We might go back to (can't understand tape).
Oh, yes, that wouldn't bother them. That's a delay. And they're patient. I mean, they've watched us bobble around for a million years to get where we are.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
I think so, sure. They're people. They'd be sorry, but I think they'd let it go through.
Audience: Bill, don't you think before they would let this enter another age, the cosmic reservists would enter in?
Sure, if they could swing it.
Audience: Well, I think they have the power to swing it, don't you?
Not absolutely, no. I think they can set up hurdles. I don't think they've enjoyed seeing any civilization go down.
Audience: I don't think so, either.
But as I read history, they've gone down.
Audience: Yes, but we have advanced so far, that I don't think that they would subscribe to us going that far back. I think they'll intervene. That's my hope.
I feel sure they'll intervene to protect human germ plasm.
Audience: Well, now, that might go down to--that's different from what J.B.'s talking. J.B., we are--you and I--as mortals, are of too caught in thinking, tens and twenties of years, 5 or 10 years, for them to go to basic germ plasm would be just (can't understand tape). Maybe the next time it would work out a lot better.
1 don't know. No one knows.
Audience: I (can't understand tape) taken the time we've had to advance as far as we have. I just feel that they would intervene rather than let us go back as far as the stone age, or what have you.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
I don't think so. They only do that once.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
I would suspect something like this. I think they'd manipulate, and if we really hadn't learned a lesson, I think they'd let a war take place which would kill off, say, two thirds of mankind. And the survivors would jolly well have learned something. And I think it would mean a retrogression of civilization, but not going back to the stone age.
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
The human race is going to have to learn. If we haven't learned, then I'm afraid we're going to have another tough time. But I can see them manipulating it to preserve a segment of mankind.
Audience: Nuclear war, though, would (can't understand tape).
Audience: Well, 31/32s or 97/98ths (can't understand tape).
Audience: (Everyone talking at once). You mean ... we wondered if ...
Here, if you come right down to it, if there were 50 million survivors, this planet would rebuild its civilization in 500 years. And with the amount of printing that we have, we'd never go all the way back. Now, we might live in a pretty primitive way for a while, but we wouldn't forget how to read. We might be unable to make things, but we could read about them. We might have blueprints that we couldn't consummate, simply because of a breakdown in transportation and whatnot. Cities would have to be deserted. We might have to go back to agriculture in a large measure. But in 500 years, I think you'd see a big change.
Audience: Bill, what's the total population of our planet? Six million?
We're nearing 3 billion.
Audience: Nearing 3.
And if that keeps up very long, it's going to take a nuclear war to clean the place out.
That's a horrible thing to say, but there's going to be standing room only pretty soon.Audience: Then, as individuals, what happens to us?
Audience: Laughter.
Well, we go on. You know, when you come right down to it, Leona, personally, if there were an ICBM exactly 2 minutes away from Oklahoma City right now, and it's through every radar defense and every interceptor defense, and we have got a minute and 50 seconds left--and I just used up another 10 seconds--we'd go on to the mansion worlds. Personally, we're not concerned.
Audience: I didn't mean you and me, I'm talking about civilization.
That could be pretty badly shaken up.
Audience: That could be a bad deal, that's what I was thinking about, really.
Sure.
Audience: Not you and me and Berk, I think our choice is pretty plain.
Well, we learn slowly. Look, I saw this country demobilize in 1918. I saw this country demobilize in 1946. We didn't learn. Then came Korea, quickly. This time we learned. We didn't demobilize after Korea. But it took 3 --
Audience: (Can't understand tape).
(Can't understand tape) to teach us that lesson. We could have stopped war in 1920, if we wanted to. But we came home and got interested--
Audience: But on the other hand, we have said before, that wars are necessary in (can't understand tape).
That isn't true anymore.
Audience: All right. But previously, it has been, they have been--
That's true.
Audience: I mean, we have accepted that before in our (can't understand tape).
That's correct.
Audience: A nuclear war, though, can destroy the whole planet, practically.
It's getting to be pretty terrible.
Audience: And, if it is, and if it can, it can also upset the harmony of a universe. Of a system--or whatever this next thing is that's a little bigger than that. And then if it does, then we could be as a planet, chastised and (can't understand tape).
Audience: Laughter.
Audience: I think a physical usurpation of any manifest powers will not be chastised.
The only thing I'm sure of, Leona, is this. If-
Audience: You don't think the whole thing can be blown up and disintegrated?
No, I don't.
Audience: You don't think so.
No. I believe this. They tell us, as near as I read this book, there are two things of supreme value on the planet, the individual human being, and the human race. The human race is so important that if a planet is to be destroyed by astronomical catastrophe--and this happens--they remove the human race from that planet and transplant them..
Audience: That's what I was getting at.
And that is my basis for believing that they would intervene for preserving human germ plasm. Now, short of that, I think they'd manipulate. They'd pull wires and do all the things they can do. But please remember, they're operating under rules and regulations. And they dare not violate these rules and regulations unless they get permission. And if they thwart human choice, they're running counter to God's will--even if these people want to destroy themselves. You're up against a real buzz saw there. God has given us this choice.
Audience: And if man chooses to destroy himself--
Short of the destruction of mankind--at that point, I think they would intervene arbitrarily and physically.
Audience: I think so, too.
Prior to that point, I think they'd manipulate.
Audience: Of course, not every mankind is going to want to be destroyed.
No, that's true.
Audience: That's right
I've sometimes visualized the Patagonians re-populating the earth.
Audience: What, Bill?
The Patagonians, or the Eskimos.
Audience: Laughter.
Audience: When will we have a new dispensational roll call?
Not until another Son arrives.
Audience: That might be a long time.
And when will that be?
Audience: A Material Son
Avonal is coming.
Audience: Avonal.
Audience: We got into that one time, Bill. It's a very good subject to discuss.
Audience: And we took the number of Avonal Sons in each local universe, and we divided up the--
--the (can't understand tape).
and we found there's one Avonal Son for 7000 planets. We couldn't understand how he could make these appearances, the time he'd spend on them, and if he's a second appearance, how he could get around to 7000 planets.
Well, he evidently does.
Audience: He does, but we don't understand how. We never did work that out.
And of course their numbers are increasing. They're not stationary.
Audience: Oh, I thought they were.
No. Michaels and Avonals and Trinity Teacher Sons are of increasing numbers.
Audience: Well, we figured up the number, and I thought they were stationary.
Audience: We figured they were pretty busy boys.
Oh, yes, that'd be clear.
Audience: We figured there was 1 to 7000 planets, I remember that. And don't you know old Elmer and I, we got into quite a discussion about how they could.
Audience: You divided and multiplied--
Next: Part 7